LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: -Ajanel and Pragyee Mool, they are supporting us. Dulce Delgadillo, our director of Institutional Research and Planning. And thank you Chandni for beginning the recording. I would next like to acknowledge our state leadership from the Chancellor's Office. We're joined by Mayra Diaz. 

We would also like to acknowledge one of our speakers, Dr. Jenni Abbott and Dean Gary Adams. And from the California Department of Education, we would like to acknowledge Dr. Carolyn Zachry, Diana Bautista, as well as our media partners at The Sacramento County Office of Education, Mandy Gonzalez, Renee Collins, Holly Clark. 

And we are pleased to present two data-rich topics to you this morning that are bound by the need to clean data for MIS reporting. So this is a community-college-focused topic, but we were so glad to see that there were many of those who registered from both the K12 adult schools and the community colleges, is that we are in a really continuous learning process of learning about both systems. Next slide, please. 

So if you've not already done so, if you could please go ahead and put your name in the chat and your affiliation. It's always interesting for you as attendees and for us as presenters to see who is in the room as we respond to your questions, both those that are asked, as well as those who completed your level of familiarity with the topics that we're presenting this morning. We really appreciate that. Next slide, please. 

So I will now transition it to Chandni who will go over a couple of housekeeping items. Chandni. 

CHANDNI AJANEL: Good morning, everyone. Just a reminder that this meeting is being recorded. The recording and the PowerPoint will be released on the CalAdultEd website following its remediation. And we ask that you please fill out the survey at the end. We really value your feedback and use it to improve our webinars. Next slide, please. 

And as always, a gentle reminder that we want to cultivate a gracious space for lively, respectful, and professional discussions. Thank you. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Thank you, Chandni. Next slide, please. And as we gather this morning on these really important hot topics, I'll review our agenda. Just remind one another, I was checking the most recent version of DataVista this morning. Nearly 700,000 students that we are impacting each year, it's quite remarkable. And the contribution that we make, both in the state of California and nationally is really something to be proud of. 

So our agenda this morning, we'll be reviewing what we're going to be learning on these two topics-- TOP to CIP course code conversion, that whole process that Jenni is an expert on, and we're so delighted she's with us. And we'll be returning to a topic that we have done. This is now our fourth webinar on SX05 statute, the Chancellor's Office expectations, and accounting methods for asynchronous distance education attendance accounting reporting. 

And we're so pleased that both Dulce will be sharing. We'll be talking about that. And we're also joined by Mayra Diaz, the Chancellor's Office, who will be giving us some updates on guidance coming. We'll have a Q&A after each of our segments, and then a few closing activities. Next slide, please. 

Here's what we are attempting to do. We realize that these are large topics that we may need more than one session. And so we'll be looking to you to ask questions as we introduce you to the TOP to CIP code course conversion process within the colleges, and discuss and illustrate why attention to noncredit course codes are important for those of us in CAEP. 

And as I mentioned, there will be an update on the Chancellor's Office guidance and expectations for reporting the SX05 data element for asynchronous distance education courses. And then, of course, we'll be comparing the three accounting methods for reporting SX05 in MIS. Next slide, please. 

And with that, I'm so pleased to welcome Dr. Jenni Abbott, who serves as a strategic advisor to the Chancellor's Office and also does significant work in noncredit in the state of Utah. Jenni. 

JENNI ABBOTT: Good morning. I'm so glad to be with you. Happy to be able to talk a little bit about what's happening with the TOP to CIP conversion. If you can move to the next slide, it might even be a secondary slide. Let's go to the next one. So some of you know a lot about this conversion. Some of you know a little. For some of you, this may feel like a drink from a fire hydrant. So I'm going to give you a lot of information. I think you'll be able to get the slide deck, and then you can reach out. 

There's lots of contact. There's a website. We'll give you all of the resources that are available. But if you didn't know, the California Community College system is the only system in the world that uses TOP codes. So we created these several decades ago-- actually, before CIP codes, because we wanted to track programs and courses. 

And then the federal government created CIP codes. We didn't ever move over to CIP codes. We stayed with TOP. But actually, the ASCCC has asked for this conversion for about 10 years. It's really big. Somebody said to me the other day, this is a a hundred-year project. And that sounds overwhelming, but it also put in perspective for me how major a project this is for all of us. It impacts documents, and policies, and multiple systems, and coding, and funding. 

So we're working really hard to get it right. It is still a work in progress, but we're trying to do that so that our reports are more accurate, our data is more accurate. We can tell the story of the California Community College System as best we can. Next slide, please. 

So these are the priorities. We want to have time to plan, to test. We want colleges to have communal discussions which should involve CIOs, CSSOs, data folks, IT folks, noncredit folks, faculty leaders, so many people from so many different areas. And I'll also tell you that if you're looking for the best experts on your campus, it's probably your curriculum specialists. They are in the weeds looking at these CIP codes all day long. 

But we're really trying to get this to be collaborative so we have time to do it well. And again, our outcomes are to have accurate data that really align with the federal standards that we have and to simplify processes for the Chancellor's Office and for colleges. That will take a minute, but once we get there, I think we'll find that things are simplified. Next slide. 

Sorry, next slide, please. So this is the current status. Some of the dates have changed. Again, because as it unfolds, it has many tentacles, and we're trying to get everything really as close to accurate as we can. So we have pushed open the deadline for revising the crosswalk. There is a crosswalk. I'm going to show you an image of it if you haven't seen it yet. 

But this is where we have all of the mappings from TOP to CIP. So when we finally open this up for people to upload CIP codes into COCI, you won't be able to choose any CIP code for a program. It will be a curated list. Sorry, would you go back to that former slide for just a minute? 

But the crosswalk that is identifying the mappings will be finalized May 15. That means if you have requests for we would like to map this TOP code to this CIP code, you should email those to me in the next week. And we'll show you the email at the end. But after the crosswalk is finalized, it will be built into an interface tool into COCI. You will put in a TOP code. It will have a dropdown of CIP codes that you can select from, and you will choose one of those to upload. 

We will ask colleges to re-enter or verify all CIP codes because some of them are-- I've heard from colleges, we've already got the CIP codes, we don't need to touch them. But yes, you will have to touch them. So we want to make sure that they're accurate. And this is for all credit and all noncredit for every program and course, any instructional program. We are moving away from TOP codes into CIP codes. TOP codes will go away. OK, next slide, please. 

So the transition between now and after the spring of 2028, you will have to report both TOP and CIP codes because MIS will not fully transition to CIP codes until after the spring 2028 reporting period. So that's a little messy. You'll have a foot in both box as you're moving where you have to report both. But then TOP codes will be completely phased out after that. 

The budgetary folks are working on codes that, I will tell you, they will look like a CIP code. They will feel like a CIP code. They won't be a CIP code, but the numbers will be very familiar so that they can fund the instructional programs that we have, and they're working on that. So having this additional time allows them to get all those things right, to test them, to verify them. We want this to be accurate. Next slide, please. 

So it's important to understand CIP codes. We get a lot of questions where people will say, please make this CIP code a CTE CIP code. Well, we can't do that. CIP codes are determined by the federal government. They are already predetermined to be either CTE, or non-CTE, or noncredit. And I'll really delve into the noncredit piece in just a minute. 

But they are based on-- they're determined by whether it's a program award, what the outcomes are. So only programs that result in a degree or a credit certificate can align with credit CIP codes. That's a little different than what we've done with TOP. In CIP codes, there is a predetermined section that is for noncredit. And it is small. It is between 32, and then there are four different numbers after that, and 37. 

And then in 53, there are some additional codes for secondary awards, certificates, or diplomas for high schools. But most of the work, at least for the community colleges, will be between 32 and 37. Next slide, please. 

So CIP codes are a classification of instructional programs. They are designed for programs. And other states do it differently. Most states that have large systems, for example Texas, Florida, Washington State, some of the large systems on the East Coast, also use CIP codes to track their courses. 

It's not a perfect match, because they're designed for programs. And I'll give you some examples of how we've identified those things. But for CTE, whether credit or noncredit, the highest level filter for you to consider is, is it primarily focused on skills? It's probably going to be a CTE code. If it's primarily focused on knowledge, it's likely to be a non-CTE code. 

Many programs have both. A little bit of skills, a little bit of knowledge. And we are going through this crosswalk now to determine which is the primary-- if it's mostly skills it's going to be CTE, if it's mostly not, it's going to be non-CTE. And there's some other cues in the descriptions, the definitions of these CIP codes that tell us which way it is. But we're just interpreting those. We can't make them one way or the other. Next slide, please. 

I want to just leave this up here for a minute, and you'll get these slides. But this is helpful for me to understand when you're looking at whether a CIP code should be CTE or not, whether it's credit or noncredit. This is from the Perkins V formal documentation. And the thing that stands out to me is, it needs to be primarily focused on labor market entry. And if that is the case and there is immediate employment after you finish whatever the program is, then it may meet the definition of CTE. 

There are a couple of other little cues in there that we have to find. But if it doesn't meet this one, if there's not an immediate-- and that means not after transfer-- we have a lot of credit-based CTE codes that also transfer, but if it's not primarily focused on labor market entry, then it won't be considered CTE. Next slide, please. 

OK, let's really get into noncredit. That's the foundation of what we're doing from TOP to CIP. The crosswalk will identify specific CIP codes for CTE, non-CTE, and noncredit. You will see them designated with whatever they are. As we're mapping from TOP to CIP, one of the things we've learned is, in TOP codes, we often used only the first four digits, even though they were six-digits long. 

So that means that many times, there will be one TOP code that maps to multiple CIP codes. It's just the opposite in noncredit, credit. Noncredit has very limited options for CIP codes. So many times, the multiple TOP codes that you have used for noncredit programs are going to map to possibly a single CIP code. 

So I will show you some of the ways that we're trying to make sure that you can track the program area, all the other things that we want to be able to do. And I just want to take a minute and tell you, my career started in noncredit. And for the last five years, I lived in Salt Lake City, and I ran all the noncredit programs for Salt Lake Community College, which was 10 campuses. 

So it's really dear to my heart. I know how impactful noncredit programs are. I was an adult learner myself. So we've spent a lot of time working with noncredit leaders around the California Community College system to understand where the challenges are, to come up with solutions so that we will have as much consistency and as much clarity for noncredit programs as courses as we can. 

And I'm really grateful to the help that we've had from so many. Especially, I want to shout out Madelyn Arballo, who's been very, very helpful. Next slide, please. 

So this is going to be one of the resources that will be most helpful for you. We have a website. You can just go to Google, put in "CCCO TOP to CIP," and it will come up with this web page so that you can see what the mapping of current noncredit TOP codes to noncredit CIP codes looks like. 

The first thing you'll see is that the nomenclature is different. The labels are different. We're trying not to change the labels that we're all familiar with. So if it's a short-term vocational, we'll still refer to it as that. But you will see, on the left-side of the screen, that short-term vocational maps to one single CIP code, 32.0111. That is workforce development and training. Every short-term vocational program that you use will map to that single CIP code. 

Well, you can see the challenges with that. That doesn't tell us much information about it. So I will show you in a minute how we are adding some data cells so that we can tell what the area is. We can track how many phlebotomy programs across the state. You will be able to see in your own colleges what you have. 

But I want you to see how different it is for short-term vocational and for workforce prep, two key areas. They map each to a single CIP code, and they need to be differentiated. If it's actual skills-based training, you should use 32.0111. If it's preparatory, career exploration, career awareness, you should map to 32.0107. So that's a little bit different, and then I'll share some more information. 

Secondly, there are only three CIP codes in the entire CIP list that are ESL. Two of them are noncredit, one is credit. So most noncredit ESL are going to map to 32.0109. There's a secondary CIP code for accent reduction and modification. That probably will not be used quite as often. Most of them will map to 32.0109. 

And I'll show you how we're tracking VESL in just a minute. But I just want you to see these CDCP areas on the left, how they map. When you look at elementary and secondary basic skills, then there are multiple choices. They break that down into math, or English, or job-seeking, or basic computer skills. So depending on what the focus of that program or course is, that's the CIP code that you will use. 

On the right, there are other-- 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Jenni? 

JENNI ABBOTT: Oh, yes. Go ahead. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Really quick. Just want to make sure I'm understanding. We have a question on minimum calls. It's my understanding minimum qualifications are tied to Title V, not CIP codes. Correct? 

JENNI ABBOTT: That's correct. CIP codes are only for instructional programs and courses. That's all. So we've used TOP codes in a lot of ways that maybe they weren't intended. We're trying to clean that up with CIP codes and keep them focused on instructional programs and courses. 

However, as I mentioned before, the fiscal side is looking at how can we use numbers that look similar to CIP codes to identify some of the things in HR and funding. So they're working on that, which is not my expertise. So I'm not going to talk too much about that. But I do want to show you-- go ahead. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Sorry. One other question, thank you. So the question was, colleges will no longer be able to select any CIP code of choice. The CIP code to be based on will be based on the crosswalk? 

JENNI ABBOTT: Yes, that's true. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: OK, thank you. 

JENNI ABBOTT: So you will have a curated choice. Very limited for noncredit. And that's why I'm going to show you some of the ways we're adding things. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Great. 

JENNI ABBOTT: There are 10 categories in noncredit. Two of them don't have an equivalent in CIP code. So in CIP, it's based on content and award, not on population. And when you think about that, this makes more sense. That's why the two categories of substantial disabilities and courses for older adults don't have a CIP code equivalent. 

There are some that are going to make more sense. For example, courses for older adults. There are leisure and recreational health-related. There are other noncredit CIP codes that you can choose from. But they're all going to be between 32 and 37 unless they're a high school equivalency or something like that, which is 53. 

So just think about it as content and award-focused, not audience-focused. And this list, this map is on our TOP to CIP web page. You'll be able to find it. This is a map I'd probably stick up over my monitor somewhere. It's just a really good reference to have. OK, next slide, please. 

I see a question. If programs are being classified as non-CTE, will that change how strong workforce funds can be used? Yes. So just a note on CTE, one of the reasons we're leaving the crosswalk open for an additional period of time is because we're finding more potential mappings so that there are more CTE options for TOP codes that are currently CTE. 

But there will be some that change. It won't be zero. Some current CTE programs will be considered non-CTE in CIP. And I can't even give you examples of those yet because we're still working through all of them. But there will be a runway of two years before funding gets impacted. 

In noncredit, it's a little bit more straightforward, we think. But it's important to know that we're trying to align with what is correct and accurate in the federal government. We don't get to choose, and we can't make decisions because funding changes. We have to make decisions because they're accurate, knowing that, sometimes, that is a very big impact for colleges. 

So we acknowledge that. We're trying to keep it reduced as much as possible. This is an image of the crosswalk. Did you have something else, Lisa? 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Jenni, yes. If a district ties TOP codes to min quals-- min quals comes from Title V-- would there be suggestions to assist with HR and fiscal? 

JENNI ABBOTT: Yes. And those are going to come from the fiscal side of the house. They are working with ACBO They're going through and changing all of their guidance. And I know enough about it to get myself in trouble, but they are working on that so that it's clarified for colleges. 

And the important thing I would say is, make sure you're having conversations with your CBO, with the fiscal side, so everybody's on the same page. So this is an image of the crosswalk. You will see, you can put in a TOP code, you can click on the TOP code title and enter any TOP code, and it will show you currently which CIP codes are mapped. This is still in flux. We have 300 requests that we are working through, hopefully, by May 15th. 

So it's still in flux. It's still changing. We're looking for every opportunity to find mappings that are either CTE or non-CTE. Most of the noncredit mappings that you will see are going to say no, because we don't use noncredit CIP codes right now. Next slide, please. 

This is a little bit closer to what you'll see if you look for a CIP code that is a noncredit CIP code. So as I told you, every short-term vocational program-- and I want to say that again, every short-term vocational program will map to CIP code 32.0111. There is only a single CIP code for that short-term vocational. 

So when you put in the crosswalk today, CIP code 32.0111 and see all the things that it maps to-- it's a long list, this is a partial list-- over on the very right-hand side, you will be able to see the count of colleges that are using that CIP code. It's going to be zero for noncredit because nobody's using them right now. But as we go and we get everyones in, these are one of the data points. We'll see what is the primary CIP code that is using. 

And I just have to say, there's not going to be an option to select a credit CIP code if you have a noncredit program. Noncredit in the definition, it will say, not eligible for IPEDS reporting. And it's one of the reasons we're moving to CIP codes because it's really hard to disaggregate all the data and make sure non-credits in the right slot and credits in the right slot. 

Non-credit has to stick to those non-credit CIP codes. Next slide, please. 

So when you look at the CIP code list, which I really recommend you spend some time doing, you can just, again in Google, put in CIP code, and it will give you this website. Or you can go to our website, and it's already linked there. When you go to the CIP code list, if you can see that little red box where it says CIP 2020, the default may say CIP 2010. Make sure you change it to 2020. They update these CIP codes every decade. The next time will be 2030. 

One of our hopes is, because we are such a big system and we're moving to CIP codes, that we will be able to help inform the CIP code list for 2030. It's not our focus today, but that's one of our hopes. So you will see, in the range of 32 to 37 down at the bottom left, these are the areas that are noncredit. 

When you go to 32, which is where most of the short term vocational, most of the workforce prep are going to be, you will see these lists of CIP codes. Next slide, please. 

This is the detail for one of the CIP codes. This is the second language learning noncredit CIP code. And you can read through it. They're always about a paragraph long. Usually when it says, a program that focuses on-- 

That's a cue that it is not CTE. When it says a program that prepares individuals to, that's a key that it is a CTE program. That's not 100% of the time, but that's usually about how we look at it from a first level. We know that VESL is a very important area. Let's go to the next slide. I think that might be the next slide that we have. Maybe. It'll come up in a minute. 

So in short-term vocational and workforce prep, these are the differences. In TOP, you can use any vocational TOP code. In CIP, you can use one code-- 32.0111. In workforce prep, you can use any vocational TOP code. In CIP, it's 32.0107. And one of the good conversations that we've had in noncredit in the California Community College system is we want these two to be clear. One is skills-focused and one is preparation-focused. That's not really skills-based. 

So you will be able to determine in your programs and your courses, is this really skills-based prep? They'll be able to get a job with this, or is this a broader more general thing? OK. Next slide. 

So this is the VESL slide. You will use, for a VESL program or course, the vocational ESL CIP code 32.0109 as the primary CIP code. And then there will be a secondary data field that you can put in the program CIP code that it's working with. And that may be a credit CIP code. 

So that's where you'll be able to see, this is medical assisting, this is phlebotomy, this is welding, this is a little bit of whatever it is-- that's how you're going to know what the program area is. This is the way across the system. And also in your colleges, you can track program areas and VESL content. So it's a combination of those two codes. Next slide, please. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: And Jenni, do you just want to clarify where they would be entering this? 

JENNI ABBOTT: So this will be, as you enter these CIP codes in COCI. There will be a primary and a secondary in COCI for noncredit in several areas, because we need both of those. I will acknowledge that doesn't make it necessarily easy in your local systems. Some of them have the ability to have a secondary CIP code. Please work with your vendors for your SIS systems. 

Because they're doing this in other states, so they ought to be able to do it for California. But those are going to be local conversations. I'm just telling you, at the system level, we will track all of that. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: And is it available for all of the programs or just for the ESL courses? 

JENNI ABBOTT: Yes, it's for all the programs. So next slide, I think, might say that. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Perfect. 

JENNI ABBOTT: Go ahead to the next slide. It's probably after this. One of the things that we found is if we map every TOP code course-- no, go back one-- if we map every TOP code course to every CIP code course, it's almost like no map at all. It will just be a whole lot of 50 courses mapped to 75 courses. 

So we are mapping programs right now. We will not be mapping courses. We're leaving this up to the colleges with some specific guidance. We're asking you, where possible, to try and stay in the same two-digit CIP code if it's credit. And then we'll audit those for consistency. Noncredit can only use noncredit CIP codes. 

However, just like with the VESL, there will be a separate data field where you can put in the 32.0111, which is short-term vocational, plus the content area that it maps to, so that you have a record. And again, we can tell the story, you can track the data, you can track the number of students in which area. So there will always be that. 

We are making some changes with SAM codes. We've learned that SAM codes across the system are the most inconsistent data element we have. Everyone interprets them differently. So we're doing two things. We're working on clarifying the definitions of SAM code. And then we're also looking at how-- if you make a SAM code change, it will no longer be a change to the control number. 

So we'll still ask you to track them and submit them, and there will be some more guidance coming out for that. OK, next slide. 

I know this is so much information. This is just a list of some of the systems and partners and communication that are being impacted, and it's a lot. So we're working-- at the system level, we encourage you to work at the local level 2 to make sure that everyone is really well-informed that you're working together. There's lots of time. 

And I'm seeing a question from Melissa. SAM codes will come off the MIS error generation? Yes, but not until September. So just stay tuned for that. We've got to be able to get all of the systems working in sync, and then it will not. OK, I think that's the last slide. Next slide is the questions. 

It's not a lot of time for questions. I just gave you so much information. These are some of the resources. Go to the web page. Look for the TOP to CIP map. Please get familiar with the CIP code list. That's really your best friend. And then there is a TOP to CIP crosswalk that you can see. You need a Google account to log in, but that's not hard to do. You can use your current email to do that. 

And you can email top2cip. You can email me. We are happy to set up individual meetings with your college. If there's anything that you want to know, we do a lot of that. So I'm just going to pause and take a few questions. Garrett, I see you have a question. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Jenni-- 

GARRETT RIECK: Hello. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Hi, Garrett, sorry. Scott had asked a question a little bit earlier. 

GARRETT RIECK: Sorry. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: I wanted to get to him first. So will-- 

GARRETT RIECK: How dare you prioritize Scott over me? 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Will the older adult CIP codes also have the secondary CIP code to indicate discipline like we will be doing for STV and workforce prep? 

JENNI ABBOTT: I don't know that. I know we're focusing on CDCP, so let me ask that question, and I can find out. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: OK, thanks. Thanks, Garrett, for your patience. 

GARRETT RIECK: No problem. 

SCOTT SILVERMAN: Thanks, Garrett. 

GARRETT RIECK: So I had a question about short-term VOC and workforce prep, CIP codes. So if you look in COCI 2.0, you'll see a bunch of courses where some colleges put them in workforce prep, some put them in short term VOC. So I have a feeling when we switch the TOP codes to CIP codes, there might be some programs that are moved from workforce prep to short term vocational. 

JENNI ABBOTT: Very possible. 

GARRETT RIECK: Yeah. So if that does happen, should we go ahead and submit labor market data to the Chancellor's Office, since that's a requirement for short-term vocational? How exactly should that be handled? 

JENNI ABBOTT: I would say probably so, but I need to verify that, Garrett. The reason that we're separating these is because one is very specifically focused on skills, and the other is really more broad, general, and we want to be able to differentiate those two so that they're clear. 

So let me find out if you're going to have to do that if your program changes from workforce prep. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Thanks, Jenni. Coming from Rita, which ESL courses would be coded 3.20112? For example, accident reduction modification is a term that can be problematic, that may accents-- 

JENNI ABBOTT: Yes. I will just tell you, I probably would not use that CIP code. I would just use the main CIP code. I'm just telling you that it's there. If you have a course or a program, you could use it. But it's not one that I would select. It's just in the CIP code list. And so we can't change that list that's federally designated. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: OK, thank you. And from Andrea, will there be more alignment between noncredit CIP codes and CAEP program areas? 

JENNI ABBOTT: So I think that's a question that probably needs to be determined. Our focus has been on the California Community College system and being accurate and consistent with the CIP code data. I think it's a great idea to align where we can, but that probably takes more conversation, and I don't want to step across that line. 

But I think the reason we collect data is we need it. And if we don't need it, we shouldn't collect it. So if we're going to have data, it should be accurate data. It should be good data. It should be consistent data. That's just my overarching feeling about data. Because it can be really helpful in decision-making. So those are probably continuing conversations that you all need to have. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: OK. Karen Bautista asks, can you elaborate on how the change in CIP codes may impact CTE, strong workforce program. 

JENNI ABBOTT: If you have a program that was designated as CTE in TOP, and when you move to CIP, there is no matching CIP code-- we are finding many, but there are some that there just isn't one. One short example is there is a difference between child development and early childhood education. 

Child development is much more theory-based and early childhood education is much more skills-based. They overlap, but we are trying to make a differentiation between this is where one should live and this is where the other should live. And that's a hot topic that we haven't resolved yet, but we're trying to figure out. And it's almost like a 50% rule. 

If you think 50% or more of your program is skills-based, then you have a good case. But if not, maybe it's not CTE. And that means funding. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Yeah. And the other piece I would add is the big concern with strong workforce is VESL. 

JENNI ABBOTT: Yes. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Right? And ESL. So if there is no ability for us to identify vocational ESL courses, then all of your ESL is going to be completely excluded from strong workforce. 

JENNI ABBOTT: And that's the reason that we've added that secondary data cell for that very specific reason, so that you can say this is an ESL course combined with a CTE program. That makes it a VESL course, so it's eligible. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: That's wonderful. Thank you so much, Jenni. 

JENNI ABBOTT: I know there are more questions. I'm sorry. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: As I said, we may end up having a part 2. Thank you so much. And with that, we're now going to transition to Mayra Diaz, program lead for CAEP at the Chancellor's Office. And if we can advance our slides. Welcome, Mayra, and we can then go into her presentation around ethics 05 guidance. 

MAYRA DIAZ: Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Good morning, everyone. Lots of great rich discussion, and we're going to continue the conversation. Jenni mentioned the importance of good and accurate data collection. And with that common denominator, the theme for today's webinar is, continuing to elevate the criticalness and impact of why it's important to continue to ensure that we are, especially in the noncredit space, collecting and reporting data because of the various implications that it may have. 

So what I'm going to be transitioning to and talking about now is something that we've been talking about since the pandemic in 2020. Six years later, we are still working on cleaning up the impact that this year essentially had. And so, I'm going to be talking about a bit-- providing a high level overview. 

We've been talking about this for years regarding the guidance memo that was released in 2024. It's been two years officially since we have released this guidance memo around the reporting of noncredit attendance hours for the California Adult Education program in MIS through SX05 enrollment-attendance hours. So just a brief overview. 

I know a lot of you might be familiar with this, but for any of you that need a refresher-- so as a result of the emergency shift that occurred due to the distance education across the system as a result of the pandemic, the Chancellor's Office had noticed that there were unusual patterns in noncredit student attendance hours that had been observed over two build cycles in what used to be the adult education pipeline. And those two years, essentially, included 2019-(20)20 and 2020-2021. Those were the impacted years of academic data. 

And so the way that we had addressed, because there was no guidance that was previously released due to the increasing use of asynchronous distance education in the noncredit instruction, there was a need for guidance to be issued by the Chancellor's Office. And this was the result of that guidance that was delivered to the state-- it came in January of 2024-- and just wanting to resurface the importance of why we want to ensure that your noncredit hours are being collected and reported into the SX05 and data element. 

It has an impact to, obviously, the California Adult Education program, as that is one of the requirements, if you are a recipient of CAEP funds that you track and you report your adult learner progress and the outcomes from the seven authorized program areas. You are collecting and reporting this on an annual basis. And community college districts that are recipients of these CAEP funds are required to be reporting this information and capturing it and reporting it to the state. 

What impact does that have? Jenni talked about the impact of this TOP to CIP. Now with SX05, the impact there is that failure to enter your student data into MIS could result in underreporting of student data in DataVista. And also, there are other dashboards where we're essentially also tracking this information, and that would include student success metrics. We know that there is also a metric that is captured in the strong workforce funding formula, as well. 

And so, really important to ensure that you are working locally to track and collect and report your annual data submission. And I'm going to share a little bit why. Next slide, please. 

Thank you. So just high level in the guidance memo, we were guiding institutions to leverage and adopt one of the three allowable modalities to be able to track and report your data. And one of the biggest feedback that we have heard across the state is that there wasn't a specific timeline for when this needed to occur. 

And what we are wanting to do today is really sound the alarm about the importance of colleges, institutions across the state, and ensuring that these hours are being tracked and reported, because we are going to be lifting this exception in the coming year. And so this can impact the data. 

We conducted a preliminary analysis, and we're able to see the impact that this exception that would be lifted would have across the state. And so we want to ensure that institutions are aware, similar to this TOP to CIP and implications that you will see, this is something that we've been talking about since in the last couple of years when this guidance memo was released in 2024. And we will be working on releasing additional guidance in the coming months. So please anticipate that that will be coming forward. 

But this guidance is going to have an actual deadline of when this exception will be lifted and really want to elevate this to colleges, because there is going to be impact in a potential underreporting of your student data. And I want to circle back to the beginning of the year letter in the adult education program. We released this on an annual basis. 

So this beginning of the year letter is that reminder that we've been issuing across the state on an annual basis. In CAEP, we have our K12 adult schools that report into TE and our community colleges that report into MIS. Or if you're WIOA-funded, you report into two systems. However, you're still required to report into MIS. 

And so it is really important that you continue to look at this guidance on an annual basis, because it is a requirement that you are collecting and reporting your data via the SX05 data element. And we've released the latest one in 2025, 2026, and we continue to do so. Next slide, please. 

And so, this is the guidance that talks about the requirement to continue to report your data of SX05 on an annual basis. Can you proceed to the next slide? I want to talk about the next steps where we currently are at. So like I said, we released the guidance in January of 2024. And really, what we want to do today is reinforce, remind, but also know that guidance, it's coming. We've been working on guidance that will be released in the coming month. 

The DataVista 3.0 is set to be released this week on Thursday, May 7, and that will include the Data Refresh of 2024-2025. And in the guidance memo that we are working to release that will lift the exception, that will have an impact to-- so '25, which is the current year that we're in right now, 2025-2026. The exception will be in place, but after that, it is going to be lifted. 

And so we really want to have a call to action to look at your data today and ensuring that those hours are being properly reported and captured, because in our preliminary analysis, we also noticed that there was gaps in hours, being underreported. And so that will have tremendous impact to institutions, specifically those large noncredit institutions. 

In addition to the guidance memo that will be released, we will also be reaching out specifically to those colleges that have tremendous-- where we're seeing the largest impact. And so we will be specifically reaching out to those. And then we will also be working with our partners, our enhanced CAEP TAP office, CCTAP, continuing to deliver professional development. 

But in addition to that, we are going to be rolling out a series of workshops and trainings, because this exception is no longer going to be in place. And like I said, really wanting to make that call to action because we've been able to see and identify what impact that is going to have. And the metrics and outcome data that we collect gets reported to the legislature. 

Obviously, you're tracking your data locally and looking at your outcomes and your student participants. In addition to that, it could have underreporting for a strong workforce metric or any future funding determinations that we may leverage as future funding opportunities come. 

So really important to ensure that you are looking and ensuring that hours are being captured and reported into the SX05 MIS data element. And I know that Dulce is going to walk us through the next-- a bit more in depth. So just wanted to provide you with a high level of the guidance memo that was released, what is coming from the state. So please stay tuned. 

And really, the message to take away is that this exception is going to be lifted in the next year, and there is going to be tremendous impact. And so it is a call to action to look locally at your data to ensure that those hours are being populated. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Thank you, Mayra. And now, we will transition into the review of the Ethics 05 accounting methods reporting. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Scott Silverman had included-- Mayra, if you can just restate which exception this is again? Some of us missed it. I can reiterate it if you want to go ahead and say it really quick. Mayra? 

MAYRA DIAZ: This is the SX05 exception that was put in place as a result of the impact of the pandemic. We've had it in place and that will be lifted. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Yep. Perfect. Thank you, Mayra. So I'm going to refresh your memory because this has been a two-year journey. And in reality, it's been a six-year journey for anybody who's been in noncredit since the pandemic. So I'm going to take you through our timeline of where we have been, where we are right now, and where we hope to be at right in the future. 

So COVID happened, which means our bread-and-butter, which used to be positive attendance hours, went out the window. We started as an entire system instructing noncredit in an asynchronous format. Open entry, still open exit, but asynchronously, sometimes in a distance education online format. It looked all over the place, honestly, across the system. 

But the point was that noncredit was being offered as part of-- sorry, asynchronous noncredit instruction was now being offered as part of the system post-pandemic in a much larger scale than it ever has been across the system. What does that mean? Well, when we track our hours for positive attendance, we typically do this-- our face to face instruction. 

We have over 116 participants today. You've engaged in the session for an hour. 116 hours are being reported as part of this one session to the state for apportionment purposes. That is 320, and I want to distinguish that 320 and our alternative attendance accounting method versus our positive attendance is within the realm of 320. That is fiscal. 

But those hours that you are capturing for all of your noncredit hours are being reported for MIS purposes in the data element called SX05. This used to be called the positive attendance data element that has been shifted over to just attendance hours. But now what we have been thrown into is a scenario where now we are offering asynchronous distance education or asynchronous noncredit instruction, and we're offering a positive attendance instruction. And we're needing to report hours for both of these methods. How do we do that? 

And so CCTAP went to work in partnership with many, many-- just what were people doing out in the field. Like Mayra had mentioned, we did not have very much guidance. And so, we are very much used to in the land of noncredit, we started inventing wheels and coming up with methodologies of how do we capture specifically asynchronous noncredit instruction? Via SX05. 

This is going to be webinar number 4. And our first one was really around what is the memo, what is the guidance? Start looking at a model of what you would be potentially using. Our second webinar included examples. So we heard Santa Ana College and how they are using a proportionate methodology. 

If a student is in attendance as of census 1 in an asynchronous class, that student is assigned 20% of those COR hours. If the student is at the 60% mark, they may be assigned either 60% or 100%, depending on the internal methodology. We have seen City College of San Francisco conduct internal audits on using clock-in models versus Canvas to ensure that if they ever are audited that they can validate and say, look, we don't have outliers that are clocking in for 300 hours. 

On average, most of our clock-ins and clock-outs are a normal distribution. And so the goal really is make sure that whatever methodology you are using, it is able to be audited. Our last one here is really refreshing your memory on those methodologies, but also reminding you that we are on a timeline, a very tight timeline. 

So within the next year, to ensure we will continue to be here to be your support structure, please call on us at CCTAP to let us know where you are at and how we can support you to ensure the most important part is that, A, you are reporting hours in SX05 for all of your noncredit instruction, regardless of modality, in order to make sure that those students are being counted for CAEP outcomes. That is the main message here. In order to make sure that those students are being counted for outcomes. 

All right. So we'll go down memory lane very quick. SX05, what is SX05? You're talking lingo. A foreign language to me, Dulce. SX05 is referencing an MIS data element. So MIS is the Management Information System that all of the California Community Colleges utilize to submit student-level, course-level, instructional-level, all of the levels, including employees to the state Chancellor's Office. 

And so when we are submitting Dulce Delgadillo's ours as part of her noncredit instruction, at a course-level, we are doing it via this data element, which is SX05. Now, notice, historically, we were asked to only submit hours for positive attendance classes. Notice the box on the left-hand side. It would actually kick out anybody who was using the attendance accounting method of I, which is what we're instructed to do. In fact, that is also changing in terms of a state-level. I won't go dive in too much into that. That is coming down the pipeline. 

But essentially, the main difference is that in 2022-- so in summer of 2022, the state Chancellor's Office realized that we are not able to submit attendance hours for asynchronous instructional courses. And so they lifted that. And so now, regardless of your modality, you should be submitting hours. 

So again, just want to go, and a really important distinction here. MIS SX05 is not the same as your alternative attendance accounting method. Alternative attendance accounting method is referencing your fiscal 320 Attendance accounting method, that is either being used for your asynchronous classes or your positive attendance formula that is being used for your positive attendance courses. 

When we specifically reference SX05, we are talking about the MIS data submission process that is happening locally within your institution. And if you are a multi-college district, multi-college level is happening at a district level. So ensuring that your hours are being submitted at a district level, or if you're a single college, within your MIS data elements. 

What are the three allowables? So you have an asynchronous class. It can be online. We've seen a variety of methods use either on Zoom, or on Canvas. Just one minute of asynchronous instruction requires you to utilize the alternative attendance accounting method for 320 purposes, but it also requires you to submit ours via SX05 for your MIS data reporting. 

So these three methods are in alignment with WIOA. In alignment with the National Reporting System for Adult Education, so these directly come from the feds. You will see an alignment. Why do we do this? Because we know that this was very much the framework of CAEP as well. 

So the one is Clock Time, then there's Teacher Verification, and then there's Learner Mastery. So I'm going to go over these, and then I see questions. So I want to make sure that we have time for questions. So the first one is Clock Time. So essentially, this is assigning contact hours based on elapsed time. 

So we've seen this a variety of ways. We've seen students clock in and clock out via Canvas, like I had mentioned. The example on this one was from City College of San Francisco. So before they moved forward with this process for their asynchronous instructions in Canvas, they conducted a pretty lengthy analysis over one year of the clock-ins and clock-outs of Canvas to ensure that there weren't some extreme outliers. 

What was the goal of that? To make sure that if an auditor comes, you are able to say, we're not reporting students that have 300 hours of clock-in time in Canvas. So what are the internal auditing or checkpoints and balances that you are conducting internally within your institutions to ensure that this method is as close as possible? 

We've had individuals do just a login. And that's a mixture between teacher verification and clock-in. And we've seen a mixture of clock-in time of students clocking in, and also teacher verification where we have a large group of students, and we have the clock-in time being recorded, but also teachers verifying that that time is actually being allocated for the asynchronous instruction. 

The second one is Teacher Verification. So this is where you start getting into what should an assignment typically take in terms of hours of instruction for a student to complete? Or hours of competency, I guess, you could potentially say, as well. What this is saying is that if you choose to go down this method, you are assigning a fixed number of hours for credit for each of your assignments. 

This means your faculty are going to be involved in assigning hours to each of those assignments. And so you assign the hours by students, by having a teacher really verify that that is what the student is doing during that course of time, as you are. So you're assigning hours to the assignments, but you are also having a faculty, a teacher verify that what that student is doing is actual asynchronous work towards that coursework. 

So what's the advantage of this? There's a lot more flexibility. So the student is able to do it on their own. They're able to get that assignments. What is the down part to this? There's going to be inconsistency. So there may be some training that you're going to have to do. 

What is the good part here? There's going to be consistency. What is the bad part here? You're probably going to rely on your IT department or some level of technology and a verification process that's going to need to take place in order for you to validate this type of data. 

And I'll hand it over to Lisa to do our last method. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Thank you, Dulce. And just before I dig into Learner Mastery, one of our points of doing the webinar today is to encourage whoever it is on your campus that is going to be doing this reporting to have those conversations coming back to what Mayra was saying earlier. And if we need to do a part 2, we will. 

So the third approved methodology Dulce referenced Title II from WIOA. And guidelines through that is called Learner Mastery, which again will involve our faculty, because it assigns a fixed number of hours of credit based on the participant passing a test on the content of each lesson. 

So thinking about our syllabi, thinking about our course of record, this is something that, again, would be decided at a local level. And Dulce, I'll defer to you. What do you see as the pro and the con of the Learner Mastery approach? 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Well, it's really getting at the curriculum aspect of it and tied. There's that faculty piece of it, but it's a heavy lift. It is a very heavy lift for the faculty on the front end because you're literally going side by side. Now, not in my wheelhouse. I'm nowhere a curriculum expert. So my question around this is more around assignments vary, I assume, class to class. So how are you taking into account the varying assignments? 

So I would assume that this would actually be at a course level, like individual course every single CRN, not necessarily when you are creating the COR at the curriculum aspect. So again, gives the student a lot of flexibility. All I need to do is, I have my self-pace. I can complete my five assignments in a week. And I know for sure those are two hours in assignment and those are 10 hours that I'm assigned. It can be very straightforward, but the heavy lift is in the front end, I would say. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Good. OK, thank you for that clarification. Next slide, please. All right. Here we have provided you with a variety of resources that will support today's webinar. So we encourage you, when the slide deck is released, to click into these. At the bottom are all of the recordings and the PowerPoint decks for the previous webinars that we've done. 

We have a document, a summary document of those three methods that we have reviewed today. Chandni is putting these links into the chat for you. I've included some state guidance on how other states have approached these methods. So we have Texas, we have Georgia, but really, the North Star is what comes out of Title II WIOA in terms of these approved methods. 

And I will turn it back to Dulce, who will close us out with our upcoming programming and some closing activities. Thank you. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Yeah, I know. I just want to make sure that we are addressing questions. Because I know this is dense heavy. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: For sure. We threw a lot of cannonballs at you. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: So definitely reach out to us if you have something specifically, like, I just want to know if I'm submitting hours, Dulce. So reach out to us. But if you're interested-- so I'm just seeing a couple of things. Does anybody have a model for verifying? 

So Kim, I would check out the summary of the accounting methods. It actually goes into some of what City College of San Francisco did in terms of integrity checks, that's what they were calling them. And then, either reach out to us, or we can also check in with City College of San Francisco and Pam Mery and see where it has evolved into. Because we know a lot of this is moving really rapidly in terms of just what does asynchronous noncredit look like for our students. 

Let me see. There is another one I think I saw from Garrett. Can we assign hours to an entire module? Yes, that is my understanding that you can. So noncredit looks very different across many programs. Some have assignments. Some have three modules. Complete the three modules, you take the average of the three modules, and that is one assignment. 

So however your structure looks like, that's what's going to make sense. Again, it's not my wheelhouse is not curriculum. But if you're going to be assigning hours to each assignment, to me, that's a CRN (course reference number) level versus unless you're doing assignments at a whole like COR level, and that's how you are tying it. 

So investigate what your curriculum process looks like. And then, let me see. We will be sharing these. And let me see. So any other questions? I'm going to open it up. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Or comments? 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Or comments? So we will be sharing information as it comes down the pipeline, because we know when there is a deadline put on us, it's like, OK, let's get our ducks in a row. So the recommendation here is, go back to your campuses. Go back to your consortia. Have a discussion around data integrity, both around SX05, both around TOP to CIP. 

Identify your champions. Identify who is submitting MIS within your local systems. And if you need a place to start, contact us. If you already have a place to start and you have some champions, gather them and see how you can brainstorm and let them know that it is coming down the pipeline that we need to completely submit this information in order for it to be reported accurately for state legislature reporting. That is the main message here. 

Thank you, everybody. So end of webinar survey. We are a research department, and we love feedback. We take it into account. We look at it every week. We definitely take it into account to our webinars. Please give us your honest feedback. This is the best way that we can serve you. We cannot best serve you if we do not hear back from you. 

So please complete the end of webinar. All of the recordings in the PowerPoint are going to be released on the website, so do not worry. We will have these resources available for you along with the other resources that were shared already. Let me see. 

Listserv. If you are interested in just staying up to date with what is happening in the CAEP land-- because CAEP is a very unique. In fact, we are the only one in the United States that is between the K through 12 in the community college system. Sign up for our Listserv. 

This is where we provide all of the information across both systems and in the CAEP land. You don't have to be a community college member. You don't have to have a username. You don't have to have anything. You can sign up with just your regular email. If you have any further questions, you can also email us at the tap@caladulted. And that is our email. 

To support, we conduct this technical assistance and support with our amazing partners at Sacramento County of Education. I see another one. So the expectation is that a college will consistently report in one of the three ways and not section by section. So it would be by CRN, whatever course level. 

So if I'm completing five hours of instruction for that course, it would be reported for that course. It wouldn't be for just-- and institutions are doing a mixture. It's not always consistent. So you can choose one of the three for what best serves the method in which that noncredit class is delivered in asynchronously. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: In conjunction with our faculty in our curriculum committees at both the college, if not the district level, depending on the structure. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: Yeah. So don't limit yourself to just one. See what makes sense. The assignments one we saw works really well for our high school diploma in some of our programs. Clock-in, clock-out worked better for some of our lower level ESL. So check what makes sense for your instruction. And this is where your curriculum, and your chairs, and your instructional faculty are going to be really key in that. 

All right. So we rely on your expertise for a lot of this. We do not have all the answers. We see ourselves as the connector of resources for all of the great work that you are doing out in the field. So if you are interested, if you have expertise in any of these, Adult Dual Enrollment, if you love data as much as I do, sign up on this. Help us just really build this community of practice and knowledge, and shared best practices among noncredit and CAEP practitioners and our adult school of practitioners, as well, to best serve our adult learners across the state. 

So you can go ahead and scan that QR code. We make it really easy. We don't want to pressure you. But if you want to be engaged in some level, we can find whatever your comfort level is, and we will definitely take your expertise and help shape it in a way that can really help serve the entire field. 

Our next community of practice is going to be on a very hot topic, Adult Dual Enrollment. So this is something that has been coming down the pipeline. Believe it or not, this legislature was actually approved in 2019, but it is not until now that we're really getting the wheels and the gears going on this large program at a system level. So join us if you can next week on May 12 from 12:00 to 1:00. 

Bring your lunch. Come and eat and have your lunch with us and find out about the land of ADE and how we could potentially help support scale that or start it off within your own programs. We're going to be listening from West LA College. We have the registration link right there. Or if you like, your phone and it's right here, go ahead and scan that QR code. 

All right. And we did finish a little early. Five minutes. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: Yes. And we actually have a great question from Mary Ann that I wanted to elevate. What are the possible consequences for poor documentation over the past five years? Are institutions held harmless while this is getting improved while that updated guidance is coming from the Chancellor's Office? So this might be a question for Mayra. 

MAYRA DIAZ: I'm sorry, Lisa, can you repeat the question. 

LISA MEDNICK TAKAMI: / so the question for Mary Ann Galindo, what are the possible consequences for poor documentation over the past five years? Are institutions held harmless until this-- what's the implication if there's poor documentation going back over the last five years? 

MAYRA DIAZ: Well, that's an interesting question. What I could share in reference to the implication that we are seeing is, when it comes to the exception being lifted officially, the implication that we will see is the underreporting of student outcomes, a drastic underreporting, specifically across those larger noncredit institutions who are not reporting hours currently potentially. 

And so, like I said, that is where it is critical when it comes to data tracking and reporting. What we're looking at right now is on the MIS side. And we've spoken with our CCTAP, and we're partnering with our research data and research team. The guidance memo will have a specific call to action and deadlines, as well. 

We will encourage any possible resubmission of MIS data within those periods where possible, but also forward-looking, that would be one of the biggest implication. And guidance that we are providing is around ensuring that hours are being collected and reporting, because once that exception is lifted, we are seeing that there are, even years closed, having released the memo, there are still some colleges that are not reporting those hours, and it will have great impact. 

Now, Mary Ann, I believe your question may also be around the local documentation. I'm assuming maybe the local documentation. If one of the three allowable options are being implemented, there's no auditing at this point, but you want to make sure that whatever methodology is being implemented at a local level, that your institution retains this documentation locally. 

I think that would be my guidance on the instructional side of how you are collecting these hours. If you are WIOA-funded, similar to that process. Because you're also having to report similarly into TOPSpro Enterprise. So the same process that you are adopting locally, ensuring that you are capturing the documentation, retaining those records, we are not requesting that information at this time. But I would say, just similarly follow that, if you are familiar with and also a recipient of WIOA funds. 

Now, on the other side, as I mentioned, when it comes to the populating the hours and your submission, when you submit your MIS data, that is where you could go back and you can do an upload within the timeline that's allotted. If for 2024-2025, 2025-2026, because this exception is going to be lifted, it will impact the 2026-2027 data submission. And right now, we are in the middle of-- obviously, the academic year for '25-'26 is almost over, but you have the opportunity to go back after today's webinar and have that discussion locally and really look at what is being submitted and what are those timelines to be able to conduct any resubmission. Because that's going to be very critical. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: We have a question from Scott Silverman that I just want to address really quick. Out of class, weekly contact hours, I'm having to convince people that we need to input that data into that field. Any advice? So what is being inputted into SX05 is a sum of all of the hours that the student has been given in the sense that you're reporting for that student for that class. So it would encompass everything. 

If you are using the alternative attendance accounting method, and if your COR takes into account the outside of classroom hours, then you should already be taking that into account and using some method to use that to be able. So I'll give you an example. Santa Ana College took the COR hours. The outside of classroom hours already taken into account into that COR hour. 

If the student is there, as of census 1, those hours, the 20% of all of those COR hours are being assigned to that student. So outside of classroom hours are already thrown into that, because they're already thrown into the COR. 

SCOTT SILVERMAN: I ask the question. One of the questions that's come up here is, how do we account for that 0.5 per week for out of class contact? Because early on when that first came up, we decided as a college to put leave it as zero. And of course, we're leaving money on the table in my opinion. 

How do we verify that that's happened? Do we need to quantify that that's happened? Or we just assume because it's written into the guideline as a suggested amount? 

DULCE DELGADILLO: I wouldn't assume, no. You would have to verify, Scott. If you can send me an email, I think this would be a good example actually on how we can start. Because it's specifically going to deal with your asynchronous instructional hours, and that's going to be looking at your COR course of record, which is all the way tied back to your curriculum. 

So a very different mindset than your positive attendance hours, right? Yeah, Scott, send me an email, because I think we may need to discuss a little bit specifically what your situation would be. 

SCOTT SILVERMAN: Cool. 

DULCE DELGADILLO: All right, everybody. I know we're over time already. Just really quick. Please do not forget to complete the end-of-webinar survey. If you have any questions, please reach out to us. There is Dr. Takami, Dr. Abbott, Mayra's, and my information email. 

And please do not hesitate. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thank you so much for your hour and 15 this morning. Have a great one. Bye, everyone.