So the webinar is now live. And folks will be able to see the Join button on the vFairs platform. And I see Adriana has joined us. Welcome, Adriana. We will get started here in just a moment. Give an opportunity for folks to come in. And thank you for coming. There's Anthony Burik. Hello, Anthony, my colleague at OTAN. Dana, Todd. So folks are rolling in, Kita. Great. And as people are coming in, if I could just ask you to write your name and your work. And what organization you're with, or where you're coming from into the chat. Just so I can see who's in the room. Thank you. Perfect. And you still have folks coming in, Kita. So maybe another minute or so. Give folks a chance to come in, and write their name and their affiliation in the chat pod. And then we can get started. We'll give a couple, 30 seconds or so. And just as a reminder to those that have entered the room, the session is being recorded. And so the recording will be posted on the CAEP Summit vFairs website for the next 90 days. And then after that, it's my understanding that the sessions will be archived over on the CAEP tab website. So you will have access to them in the future as well. Great. So should we give it another moment? Or you think I should go ahead and get started, Penny? I think you can go ahead and get started, Kita. The folks rolling in have slowed a bit. But you'll get more folks coming in I'm sure in the next few minutes. But I'll try to give the information in the chat. So they can add the information as they come in. OK? Yeah. Well, good afternoon. Thank you. I appreciate people showing up. I believe this is the last session of the CAEP Summit for this year. And so thank you for making time in the middle of your day to come sit with me. And be in learning together. I decided to do this because last year, I really enjoyed presenting in-person. And decided to share where I was at in my learning. And I have to say this format is definitely more difficult for me. I like being in person. But again, thank you for being here. So I titled this presentation Decolonizing Education-- Exploring Whiteness, Healing, and the Recovery of Belonging. And there's a lot in that title that we will definitely unpack together. And you probably already do, but if you want to have paper and pen by you, that would probably be good. There'll be a few moments where I give you a chance to do some reflection. So in all of my work with students and colleagues, I always like to start with just a moment of grounding to open the space together. And although we're not actually in a circle, wherever you each are, just taking a minute to feel yourself sitting in your seat, bringing a little bit of awareness into your body. You may have been running around all day. You may have been sitting, staring at the computer a lot. So even giving yourself a chance to close your eyes, if you want. And taking a deep breath in through your nose, and letting it slowly out. As I'll talk about throughout this session today, but bringing our bodies into our thinking and learning process is actually, I've found, a really important part of bringing ourselves to our work and showing it more fully. So just inviting you to come into that space. And if you need to take a minute and roll your shoulders-- you might have been hunched over the computer-- and just breathing while you do so. And then, when you're ready, opening your eyes just to arrive. And at this point, we would all go around and share. I was disappointed when I found out that, in the webinar format, we can't actually see each other. And it definitely doesn't feel like a circle when we're not able to see each other. But I would just invite people, if you haven't already, to put your name, your work into the chat. And actually, if people could take a moment now and just write what brought you to the session today, what's important to you about this work? So just anything in the title that made you think, oh, I want to connect with this for this reason. Or how does it apply to you? And you could just take a moment and type a few things so I can see and we can all see what brings people here today. I'm just going to give a minute for that. And I just encourage participation. I know it's easy to step back in this environment. So focusing on equity and healing, connecting and better serving diverse students, whiteness as equity, equitable access and opportunity-- passionate about decolonizing everything anywhere, it needs to be done. Great, thank you. Doing the work for myself to better inform my work and practice. Wonderful. Thank you. And hopefully you can all-- I think reading the chat will be part of what we do here together. So just encouraging you to engage with each other that way through the text on the screen. OK. Great. Thank you all. And also just, as we're opening, I want to take a minute acknowledging all of you for showing up today. And I also want to acknowledge the land that I'm on, which is Pomo land. I'm up in Ukiah in Mendocino County. And the Pomo people, past and present, this is their ancestral land that I have the privilege of being on. And in decolonizing work, there's many facets of it. And one, of course, has to do with land. And I personally think it's important to just recognize the history and where we are. And I've included a link here. And these slides are all in the folder that's linked to this presentation. If you know whose land you are on, you could type that into the chat right now. And if not, maybe afterwards you want to go to the link and look up. It's a really neat interactive map that shows all the different tribes in the United States. And it really breaks it down in a cool way. And just also, along with acknowledging whose land we're on, there are some organizations. Like in the Bay Area, there's a group of Indigenous women who have an organization called the Sogoreate Landtrust. And they collect the Shuumi tax, so for people with colonial settler backgrounds heritage who are living on that land, they invite us to pay a tax to help them with their rematriation movement of taking back the land and building community and connection with the land. Cool. So a few people are writing in. Great. So yeah, hopefully you will be inspired to just learn a little bit more about where you are, if you haven't already. And I also just want to be really transparent. In my own work of understanding my whiteness, and my conditioning, and what I've been taught, and how I operate in the world, and learning to unpack some of the more harmful conditionings that live within me, I have a few principles that I'm really working with in my work of decolonizing myself, my own mind, and the way that I show up. And I just want to be explicit with you. So one of them is slowing down, so not rushing. And we'll get more into this later about how some of this can counter some of the aspects of white-dominant culture that can be so harmful. So slowing down, having awareness of emotions and body, not just thoughts, thoughts, thoughts all in the head rationality. Recognizing that everyone holds valuable knowledge, and speaking from my own experience-- so not universalising. I can only speak for myself. I can't speak for any group of people to which I belong or to any group of people to which I don't belong. And I also want to be really clear that I am not claiming to be an expert. And I think the way our education is set up historically, the teacher is the expert or the facilitator, the presenter is the expert. And so even here, me talking to the screen not being able to interact with you, for me this is part of the problem with colonial-style education which is like, here, I'm just supposed to dispense something. I would so much rather be in dialogue in a circle having us all be able to share our knowledge. And I admit I'm not technologically oriented enough that I've figured out how to really make that work. And also the limits of the platform, the Zoom webinar, I find it's pretty limiting. So there's an irony in doing this. But I just really want to own that I'm speaking for myself. And I am just sharing my learning with you in hopes that perhaps it will be of service. But also I chose to do this for myself as a way of pushing myself to speak what I'm learning and to be able to articulate the arc of my understanding, which goes to the next point of just ongoing learning and reflection is part of this week, part of this work. There's no arrival. There's no, OK, I've figured it out, here I am. And I think, in my own work of my race consciousness-- I'd say, when I was a child, I didn't think about race at all, as whiteness has a tendency to do, to deny its own existence and just normalize whiteness. But in my later teenage years when I started getting more of a critical lens and learning, I would go through growth spurts of, oh, wow, things are this way, and feeling like I'd done some work and unpacked some things. And then there can be a plateau. I think I figured something out. And more and more I'm learning it's a constant cycle, and the work really never ends. And the last point of just authenticity and courage, it can be-- oops, sorry about that. It can be scary to talk about things, especially because white conditioning teaches us as white people-- so me, as a white person-- not to talk about race. And I think we're in a moment in history where that is definitely being taken apart and coming undone. And another characteristic, of whiteness being perfectionism, which we want to say the right-- I want to say the right thing. I don't want to say the wrong thing, when really, we have to talk about these things. So that's just my transparency about where I am and what I'm working with and trying to bring forward. I even thought about using the term decolonisation or not. I think-- I feel and think-- that we're in a moment of there's more opportunity and more opening because so much change is happening with the pandemic and then the curtain being drawn back on the racial violence and some of the uprisings. And more white people in my life in the last eight months have reached out wanting, what should I read, and let's talk about whiteness in a way that I hadn't seen before. So it really is an opening. So with colonization, we often think about one country taking over another country, stealing the land, exploiting resources, exploiting labor. And that is absolutely part of it in that material sense. Michael Yellowbird, who I really recommend looking up-- he's at North Dakota State University-- says, "Colonization refers to both the formal and informal methods, behavioral, ideological, institutional, political, and economical that maintain the subjugation and/or exploitation of Indigenous peoples' lands and resources," which I think is a thorough and historically specific definition. I recently read another idea about colonialism, which is broader and has helped me in my thinking, from Rene Henery. But it says, colonialism is "the imposition of a value on some facet of creation-- a person, a landscape, a tree, an animal, water, et cetera-- that is other than or separate from its intrinsic value." So that really, imposing a value system on anything that is separate than the inherent value of that something, is a colonial move. And I feel like that's helped me think about the way our education system is colonial. So for instance, the way we assess students and what we're measuring success by. And I think we're making progress. Or who do I mean by we? But I feel there's a lot of progress being made on that. OK, I'm going to move forward here. I'm just checking out the chat, too. Thank you. Yeah, you're welcome to put whatever is coming up for you in the chat. So I want to just back up and say a little bit about whiteness, even though I've already started talking about it a good amount. An important reminder, that there's no biological foundation for race. It is a social construction. And I get surprised sometimes at how that idea is not alive among everybody. And I just wanted to read this Toni Morrison quote. "There is no such thing as race, none scientifically, anthropologically. Racism is a construct, a social construct. And it has benefits. Money can be made off of it. And people who don't like themselves can feel better because of it." And a definition of whiteness-- whiteness is a hegemonic system that perpetuates certain dominant ideologies about who receives power and privilege. Whiteness maintains itself in cultures through power dynamics within language, religion, class relations, sexual-- race relations, sexual orientation, et cetera. Excuse me. So whiteness-- my understanding, from what I've learned, is that whiteness was created with a purpose to give a certain group of people power. And in that sense, whiteness and white supremacy can't really be separated. And I know some people aren't necessarily comfortable with hearing that. When they hear white supremacy, they might think of the KKK, or far-right groups, or white nationalism. But where I'm at in my understanding of it is that whiteness itself is predicated on the idea of white supremacy, because that's why the very idea was created. So because of that then, as someone who benefits from whiteness, it's my responsibility to start to take that apart and look at how it's really operating. So Hillary had put a question in the chat. How do we balance teaching students the language and civics skills they need to assimilate into our culture while also valuing the knowledge, experiences, education, and culture our immigrant students bring with them? Yeah, I think that is a great question. And I think I'm going to go through my presentation. And then we'll see if what I offer answers anything to that. And if not, we'll have time to talk, because I'm not planning on talking for the full 90 minutes. OK, let me move forward. So when we're thinking about whiteness and colonialism, I think that another idea that I have been introduced to and is making more and more sense to me but also isn't necessarily widespread is that we are all wounded. And we've all been hurt by the system. As I say that, I want to be very clear that we are not hurt in the same ways. I'm not saying everyone is a victim to the same extent, or everybody's a perpetrator to the same extent. That just, obviously, isn't true. But I think that, in white culture, there has been an idea that, oh, whiteness is working for us. And really, I disagree with that. From Segrest, a scholar, she said, "What we miss is insight into the profound damage racism has done to us," and she's speaking to white-identified people, "as if we as a people could participate in such an inhuman set of practices and beliefs over five centuries of European hegemony and not be, in our own ways, devastated emotionally and spiritually." And again, Bell Hooks really talks about, be careful of saying this, because you don't want to recenter whiteness. But I feel like I am talking about whiteness explicitly, because that's what I've been trained up in. And so I have to study it in order to take it apart, especially because it wasn't until-- I think I was 21. And I was teaching. I went to a conference. And they talked about whiteness and white consciousness. And it was the first time I had even heard those things brought up, because again whiteness normalizes itself and problematizes color. And so we could talk about other races, but not talk about whiteness as a thing. And then two other quotes-- just, "Nobody's free until everybody's free," from Fannie Lou Hamer. And, "Turn your wound into wisdom." So just recognizing here that we're all wounded in some ways. And the healing is going to look very different depending on where we are, our position in the power dynamic, depending on our own experiences, depending on how our different identities intersect and inform our experiences. I also appreciated this quote. "Reimagining whiteness requires seeing yourself as fully capable of responding to racial inequity and engaging other white people in this process as a non-negotiable imperative. Thus, white people addressing whiteness toward racial equity requires a collective effort." So just recognizing this as something that there is work white people need to do together. So when I was thinking about this presentation, there's really two pieces I wanted to talk about. One is the inner work that I believe we as teachers, educators-- I, myself, am a teacher. I realized I've hardly even introduced myself. So maybe I'll just tell you a little bit more about me in this moment. I'm born and raised in San Francisco. I taught at alternative and continuation schools in San Francisco and Oakland for 15 years-- English, social studies, and yoga. And I, three years ago, moved up to Mendocino County, where I've been teaching in the county jail for Ukiah Adult School and getting to work with adults finishing their high school diplomas. And working in the jail has really been an educative experience for me and also given me the chance to really do some healing work with folks and integrate some of the social-emotional learning and academic learning. And what I've found is holding space to hold the circles in the jail-- I can only offer what I have. So doing the inner work of taking apart some of the stuff that I'm talking about is necessary in order for me to show up and hold the circle in a way that actually creates equity and doesn't perpetuate racism. Just reading the chat there for a moment. So Yellowbird again talks about decolonizing our minds. So, "Undoing the effects of colonialism and working toward decolonization requires each of us to consciously consider to what degree we have been affected by not only the physical aspects of colonization, but also the psychological, mental, and spiritual aspects." So just again, here focusing on what we can do inside ourselves. And an idea I've been introduced to is that there is really three fields of transformation. There's the personal, the interpersonal, and the systemic. So right now, I'm talking about the personal, but recognizing that interpersonal-- which also, I guess, I'm speaking of that, too-- is not more important than the systemic transformation, but that all three of those things go together. And what is inside of us, I think, gets communicated to our students. So if we haven't unpacked some of our own what people like to call unconscious bias-- but I have a question about, is it really unconscious-- but unpack some of our own bias, then that will get communicated. And if we're not willing to look at how white-dominant culture is playing out through us, then we'll keep perpetuating that. So I feel, as a white woman working with a diverse group of people, it's my responsibility to unpack my stuff so that I can interrupt some of those cycles that I've been raised in, which takes a lot of constant reflection. This is a piece, just a tool for self reflection, that I think is useful in many contexts. But you may have heard of the idea that we have a comfort zone, a stretch zone, and a panic zone. And a piece of white fragility can be, in talking about race, we can go into panic zone. But just generally, when we get stressed, when we're being pushed outside of what feels comfortable to us, there is that place of healthy learning, like the zone of proximal development. But then there's beyond that where we can start to freak out a little. And this idea of the compass of shame says that we have-- there's four main tendencies. We're going to look at it. And then try and think about yourself. This applies to both professional and personal work. Where do you think you go? So one of the tendencies-- this relates to fight, flight, and freeze. So the fight access is across. So there's the tendency to attack the other, like criticizing people, not taking responsibility, pointing fingers, lashing out, just blaming everybody else. And then, on the other side, there is attacking self, which tends to-- putting yourself down, thinking you did something wrong, never feeling good enough, which is just another form of fight, but it's directed at oneself. And then the flight tendency is to either withdraw, so just checking out. Maybe you're there physically, but you're not really present, isolating yourself. Or avoidance, which is just pretending the situation doesn't exist. Numbing out with-- could be drugs or alcohol, but could also be online shopping, or just binge watching, whatever we do to avoid. So as you look at this, I invite you to just think about, what is my tendency? So just which tendencies do you see most in yourself? And then you can go ahead and share this in the chat. Thank you, Daniel. And you can think about, what works about this for you, because we do it for a reason. But then, how does it impact your work? And what might you like to do instead? And I'll just share, as an example. And then people can write in the chat. Mine is definitely attack self. And what works about it, I think, is that I don't get into conflicts with other people. I'll just beat up on myself, think I didn't do a good enough job, or whatever it is. And then I don't actually have to deal with conflict. But how does this impact my work? Well, if I'm modeling being mean to myself, how can I actually-- why would I afford somebody else more care or encouragement than I would give to myself? And then that encouragement I'm giving to someone else doesn't have the authenticity that it might if I could also give that same encouragement to myself. Just reading-- so yeah, avoidance, withdraw, defensiveness, although justifying it and saying you're not being defensive. Yeah, we definitely have-- we can do all of them at certain points. But in thinking of what might you like to do instead, it's a big question, but something to think about. But just, how can awareness of your patterns and bringing attention to them perhaps shift your habits? And the reason I included this is I think, in doing some of the decolonizing and racial awareness work, there can be a tendency to go into a panic zone, because it's not necessarily, in the white-dominant world, our mode to be talking about it. So people get out of their comfort zone pretty easily. Yeah, a good example-- avoidance allows me to avoid conflict or saying something I don't want to say. It impacts my workers. I could avoid responsibilities that I should face head on. Yeah, thank you to everybody who's sharing-- so being curious, go towards a neutral space. It's hard to see past color when you're a person of color, good or bad sometimes. It impacts my work, because I pay attention to the people in the room who look like me. Thank you all for sharing. So you can take that with you. Now I want to get into some of, I guess, what I see as the meat of it. An organization called Dismantling Racism published a piece-- I don't know how many years ago, actually, maybe 15 or so-- that outlines some of the characteristics of white-dominant culture. And these things, we might see in ourselves. And they also might live in our organizations or institutions. And I just want to go over them-- so defensiveness, individualism, perfectionism, urgency, either/or thinking, power hoarding, fear of open conflict, paternalism, only one right way, the right to comfort, objectivity, progress is more and bigger. So you may look at this and be like, oh, wow, I feel these in myself a lot. And also, oh, my organization really tends to have urgency. We think, we have to hire somebody now. And then you end up not doing the search to really make sure you're recruiting and bringing in a diverse group of candidates. And so then you end up hiring another white teacher at the school when really, with more time and a better search, you could be bringing in more teachers of color. So looking at these characteristics-- get my Forward button going. This is where I wanted to do breakout rooms, if we could. Which of these characteristics do you see most strongly expressing in yourself and your work? How does it show up, and what is the cost? And if we were doing PD at a school or something, I think this would be a great thing for a school organization to be looking at together. But for now, I'm going to be quiet for a few moments and give you a chance to write, and think, and hopefully really share in the chat. Yes, I'll go back to show you the slide. And I know I just read them. If anybody wants me to explain further about one of them, I'd be happy to do that. So just giving people a chance to think. Yeah, objectivity-- so the idea that there is an objective perspective and that it would even be possible to look at something objectively. And I was a history major in college. And this came up a lot, because the way that history has been written, in a certain sense, seems to assume that there was one correct perspective. And I think, at this point, we realize-- well, hopefully-- that everything is subjective. And there are as many perspectives as there are people. And so there's not going to be one correct version of history or of an event, and that really-- so subjectivity is really about, for me, honoring everybody's experience, perspective, and valuable knowledge whereas in white-dominant culture, the idea that somebody can be objective and hold the actual truth, we're throwing that out the window, because that's just based on-- it's not real. I guess that's what I would say about objectivity. Oh, yeah, perfectionism, defensiveness, can you-- oh, versus explaining. Can you explain the difference? So perfectionism I see as the idea that we're always striving to get it right, and that we don't want to make mistakes, and that really that holds a-- I mean, us, I'm just talking about humans. Or I can speak for myself. Perfectionism is wanting to do it right, so unwilling to try new things, thinking that it's possible to get it right. So perfectionism is very focused on the product rather than the process, that we're trying to create some ideal thing, rather than a learning process that is messy. I see, for me, the antidote to perfectionism is accepting messiness. And that can be in processes around anything. But as I age, I'm finding life is still messy. And the more I can embrace that messiness, the better off I am. And the better off the people around me are, because things do not fit into a neat little box. So defensiveness I see as different from perfectionism. Defensiveness is just not wanting to take responsibility. If we get criticized, we want to just lash back. No, that wasn't me. And it comes from an unwillingness to look at our part and to take accountability, so just not being open to feedback. So again, on the other side of the spectrum from defensiveness would be open learning. If someone wants to give me feedback and tell me, hey, this didn't work for me how you shared about this, or when you did this, it felt problematic because-- that's a gift. So rather than being defensive, I would want to be open to receiving feedback from a learning stance from the hope that I will keep getting better. Great. I'm going to read some of these. A lot of these are reflected in the focus on payment points and outcomes-based funding that drives adult ed. We're forced to push toward quantifiable individual outcomes, because that's what our society and structure has determined is most valuable. Absolutely. And so what do we do operating within that system? And it's just been interesting, with COVID, watching there be more wiggle room around how we document things. And even, OK, we can document attendance based on if the teacher and student are having communication that day around the work. And it seems like there's an opportunity for changing some of that structure. On my campus, I've seen defensiveness, urgency, and progress as more as ways that disrupt institutional growth-- fear of open conflict, defensiveness, right to comfort. And as a program specialist, I've learned that the fear of conflict is OK, but be open to it. Conflict is more of another way of looking at things. Defensiveness is what I used to do when I got angry when people were trying to help me. And I realize this was a positive thing. Now I'm learning that the right to comfort is key for all coworkers, as much as I can. I think I'm-- Daniel, I'm trying to fully understand. I think-- so my understanding of the right to comfort is the idea that, as humans, we would all like to be comfortable. And unfortunately, the way our society has been set up, white people tend to think they have a right to be comfortable when people of color have been forced in many different ways and different situations-- not universally, but been forced to be in uncomfortable situations over and over again. And white people haven't been. So part of breaking down the white-dominant culture is recognizing that, as white people, it's OK for us to be uncomfortable and not freak out about it. So that's what I want to say about the right to comfort. Also, the constant push toward the skill we teach having the most value in the world of work, rather than valuing learning for the sake of learning, and the non-work motivations our students have for being learners in our school. Yeah. Yeah, thank you, Carmen, for pointing out that perfectionism usually has a standard and specific point of view, typically white-dominant views, of what perfection entails. This is a great reading in the chat. I feel funny reading to you guys, because you can read to yourselves. But I think it's so hard for me-- I'm just going to name in this moment-- hearing my own voice on and on. And I really wish that I could hear all of you. So how do you change this mindset when people don't feel it's an issue? Yeah, this is the big question-- especially in school districts when isolating the students who are served in adult ed. Our students are second-class citizens, because they were the dropouts. Yeah. Yes. OK, so the thing about changing the mindset-- just speaking to what you wrote, Tiffany. Again, I don't have all the answers, of course. For me, I do as much work as I can. And then my work has been about engaging people in my life in inviting ways to join me in the reflection. And that's easier with people I'm more comfortable with. But then there are times when I'm like, OK, I need to push myself to talk to this person that I don't have that much of a relationship with, or at my school or with my colleagues, starting to introduce some of these things. For me, deciding to sit here and speak to all of you not even knowing who you are feels like a big risk. But for me, it was like, OK, it's time for me to start speaking about what I'm working with in a more public way. And I think we each have to find what our offerings are. And that will depend again on our identities, and our positions, and what we have access to, and not. But for me, it goes back to the courage piece. It can feel really daunting when it's like, a lot of people don't even think this is an issue. And I thought, oh, I wonder if there will be people in my audience who are like, whiteness, why are we talking about that, or just could see it very differently than me, which on one hand, OK, they see it differently than me. And on the other hand, my lived experience is telling me, this is really important. So dialogue, taking risks, and I also think building community with other people who are doing the work, and having collaboration among people who want to be having these conversations so that we can keep brainstorming together and coming up with collective ways of putting pressure where there needs to be pressure put. That's what I have to say about that right now. Thank you for that question. Just checking. I know. Daniel, I wanted to be able to turn off mute. But they had told me that that was not possible in this webinar format, which was upsetting. And I almost felt like I didn't want to do it, if that was the case. Kita? Penny, do you have something to say about that? If you like, I can go through and manually open up microphones, if you like. Oh. I would love that. Yeah, why not? When I had asked about that last week, they had told me it was impossible. And-- Well, we have ways to do this. Let me see. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, Penny was the holder of this important knowledge. And I didn't even know. I had asked, and they had given me a pretty clear answer. Wonderful. I see your name's popping up. Some of you may not be able to, because you have older versions of Zoom. So those of you that do not see a microphone, you may not be able to share your mic because you have, like I said, an older version. So let's see. I'm getting through it. So Kita, you can give folks a-- Yeah, I'm going to talk a little while you're making that work. Thank you. I just want to recognize Jacqueline had said, thanks so much for sharing. People of color have spent too much time explaining, and it's resulted in nothing good. And hearing Tiffany say that she's tired and glad to hear that there has been a work group started in somebody's consortium. And yeah, I appreciate that. And I think, again, it relates to where the burden is. And I think, for me, I've just realized that white people need to step up. And even though we will never fully-- we can never understand the experience of being a person of color in this country. And we can talk about what we do know, and how whiteness is operating to perpetuate the racism. And realize that it's not-- historically, racism is not our issue. Racism is white people's issue. We are the ones that have been benefiting from it, so I think that shift in how we see the ownership and the importance. Ooh, I think-- it looks like-- I think you can-- you might have to-- I can help you, Kita, with controlling the microphone. So folks, if you can-- We can talk now, right? Yes. Be appreciative-- I don't know, on your screens, if you have the ability to raise your hand, that would help Kita be able to recognize you and allow you then to unmute your microphones. Yeah. So I think-- let's see if I can see more of you. Cool. I'm seeing names, and nobody's video, but at least some pictures. If-- So Kita, you do have two hands up-- [AUDIO OUT]. --from Daniel and from Jacqueline. OK, thank you. Jacqueline, go ahead, and then Daniel. We'll go women first. All right. [LAUGHS] So yeah, I just want to thank you for talking and bringing all this stuff up, because I know it's not easy. But I also want to say one of the things I've noticed is that, even as a person of color, there's a lot of these things that I've adopted to fit in. And so that was a part of the perfectionism-- was, if I make a mistake, they're not going to hire another Black person. Or I'd be in a place where they say, oh, we want to look for a Black person. But the last time we hired one, it didn't work out well. And so I think that it's an issue with white people. But it's also an issue of people of color sympathizers, or people taking on those things. And it makes progress-- I don't know if anything's being addressed towards those of us who've adopted these methods, because I know one thing I'm running into is things aren't perfect. It is a little messy. And people are like, ugh. There's this expectation that we're going to do it perfect. It's going to be-- and it's like, we're learning. And we're all growing. And everyone gets a chance. And as a person who's worked in different places, I've seen white people being given that chance to grow, and move on, and grow into a role. But people of color don't get the same thing, I guess. That's what I'm saying. So I was just wondering-- I didn't know. And then the other question I had is I didn't know whether or not there was a work group for folks to talk about this more actively and what's happening on their campuses, but also to get together and think of some strategies around it. That's all. Thank you so much, Jacqueline. That was really a valuable perspective to add. So thank you. And on the work group front, I don't know. And I am not that involved with CAEP, to be honest. I just took the opportunity to get to share and maybe connect with folks. But I definitely will-- I'll put my contact information. But I don't know if we could reach out to CAEP and find out if there's a work group specifically for the whole network. And also, I just really appreciate you saying that you, as a person of color, you see these things in yourself, too. And that makes a lot of sense to me hearing that. And I think, because white is the quote, unquote, "dominant culture," and those white-dominant characteristics have infused all of our institutions, then all of us living here get influenced. And I see that as a form of colonialism, the fact that we've all gotten molded to think urgency and perfectionism and-- they call them characteristics of white-dominant culture. But they're impacting everyone. And we all digest them, just like-- I don't know. Ibram X. Kendi talks about, if you're walking in the rain, of course you're going to get wet. And to think that you've been walking in the rain of racism and that you haven't gotten wet is ridiculous. So whoever we all are, we've probably ingested some of these things. I'm seeing more in the chat. Oh, and then was it Daniel who was going to speak next? Yeah, I just-- Yeah, he had his-- I just wanted to thank you for being so open and vulnerable and telling us everything that you're talking about. I also wanted to say that I totally misunderstood the right to comfort. I didn't realize the definition that you had explained. One of the issues that we're having at our school-- and I'm sure other schools experience this as well-- is that I would just say bias among the international students in our school and how they have a huge-- I don't want to say racist, but have biases against different cultures and wanting to work with them or talk to them. And that's a totally different subject than what we're talking about right now. But I just wanted to make sure that people bring that up that that happens as well. Yeah. And I guess I would just say again, thank you. I love how you spoke to something that you had misunderstood and how you're understanding change. And I think that I appreciate that embodying and being willing to admit-- not getting it perfect all the time. And then, in terms of-- yeah. Just for me, there's a difference between personal prejudice and understanding systemic and structural racism and who's benefited by that. And I think there's absolutely important work to be done in all groups about stereotypes, and how we developed as young people developing ideas about each other, and unpacking some of that. That needs to happen as well as understanding how the structures are set up to benefit certain groups of people. I think I'm going to move forward in the slides. But Penny, if you wouldn't mind, if you see a hand up, if you could tell me, because I can't really see everybody. I will. Anna is next. OK. Go ahead-- Thank you. --Anna. Thank you. And definitely thank you for presenting today about this very, very important topic that is not touched on very often. How we addressed it at the consortium level when I came on board, because we serve this community in Greenfield-- I'm Indigenous myself. But in Greenfield, there's the huge number of also Indigenous people, like myself. And so I realized that there was a maybe miscommunication between our students and our instructors, the majority of our instructors. And I think that there's-- I'm glad that you mentioned also that sometimes there's, I guess, an imbalance between the people that we have in our institution compared to who we serve. And so therefore, what we saw here where I work is the same thing, that there was a huge, I guess, sometimes disconnect between our Indigenous community and some of our cities and our instructors and just the way that our school was designed. And so therefore, we invited a non-profit, whose focus was on how to teach us how to talk to our students. It's called Binational Center for the Development of Indigenous Communities. So Dr. Gaspar Rivera from UCLA actually came and gave a beautiful-- a full-day presentation about just a lot of misconceptions, just ways that we can connect with our students and be able to understand them better and be able to serve them better. We invited everyone from our county, especially people that work in government institutions. And it was very well received. I felt honestly that, after, even our instructor, the instructors that I was leading-- when the instructors saw this presentation, it seemed to me that they related better to our students, and just provided a better service, and therefore increased our reach. So just as a possible solution as to what worked for us. Unfortunately, I feel that it also has to be consistent. So that time, it was just one presentation, and we were done. But I felt that maybe even an annual presentation would have really made a bigger impact. That's all I wanted to share as a possible solution. Thank you so much, Anna. Would you be willing to write the name of that organization in the chat so we can each look at it? Of course. They actually have offices all over California. So I'm sure that you'll find-- Great. --the nearest office to you. Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm seeing that Janette-- or Janice, I'm not sure how to pronounce your name-- is next to share. Yeah, thanks. It's Janet. Janet. Yeah. Thanks. I just had a question. I know that this is an ongoing topic for all of us. And I'm just really grateful that the platform has been given. Give the challenges, sometimes we-- there's always that light within the dark, or the challenges that we're facing today. And I think it's also important that we start institutionalizing-- or adopting, I would say-- processes that would help us acknowledge when we're doing microaggressions or when certain behaviors lead to some kind of discrimination. And I know, for some, people of different race have been embedded and may not realize it. That's the point of self-actualization. But also just I really would like for us to put processes in place where, for example, someone saying a microaggression, and you point them out, and they don't take it personal. How do we determine or how do we help communicate that it's not personal to that person? It's just it may be a subtle behavior that was never really paid attention introspectively. So within that, what has worked for you when you're in those situations and vise versa that we can start implementing at our institutions? I feel like we always talk about it. And it's great that we talk about it. But I don't see much action being involved, in my opinion. Thank you for that. Thought provoking. From what you said, there's two strands, the first in terms of about being able to call each other on microaggressions and people not get defensive. And again, that's more in the interpersonal field of transformation. And for me, that's where I just recommend for white folks to read White Fragility, and maybe be in white affinity groups to talk about it, and start unpacking. And then I feel that, generally, I've really shifted. I noticed that there were times where it's really easy for me to want to police, especially other white people. And that is not my job either. So shifting from a calling-out culture to a calling-in. And what does calling in really look like? For me, the way that I love to receive feedback is someone saying, I noticed something. I wonder if you're open to receiving some feedback, coming from a place of genuine, are you open to receiving feedback? And then they can say, yes or no. If they're not, it's problematic. But if you tried and they were just being defensive, probably nothing would happen there anyways. But I think it's through relationship building, and through finding ways where the feedback doesn't feel like we're policing somebody else, but rather we're inviting into dialogue. And that can also be-- I mean, personally, questions are my favorite thing. And I think asking an inquiring question like, oh, what is it-- when you said this, my interest was piqued. What did you mean by this, because it brought up this for me? So there's that. And the other thing I've been working with is just speaking about how it makes me feel, because I'm in a bunch of different book study groups. And some of them, things get said, and I don't know what to say. And I've started just trying to say, wow, something about that is making me feel really uncomfortable. I'm not sure what it is yet. But I want to flag it as, I feel uncomfortable. That made me feel tense, and then trying to unpack it, so speaking from the I. That's on that more interpersonal side. And yeah, institutionally, I think-- and Ukiah unified this year. We've created an equity team with representatives from each of the sites to start looking at equity for the whole district. And I see the work not fully getting off the ground. And there's so much going on with districts trying to manage distance learning. But I think that there does need to be-- I just completely agree with you that it has to happen on multiple levels. I know some people I know who are principles are just starting with the PD. So they have PD every Wednesday. One Wednesday a month, they're calling it racial justice PD. And that's actually when they have a BIPOC affinity group of teachers. And then she was not sure what she was going to have the white teachers do yet. But creating spaces and building it into the structure where it's like, we need to be having these conversations. And sometimes, it's as simple as having carved out time and saying, this is going to be our priority. There's no roadmap. We're building the train as we're getting on it. But we're going to carve out time. I hope that was responsive. And that's just my one response. I'm sure other people could add more. But I really appreciate the question. If you guys are OK with it, I'm going to move forward a little. So I had a talk-- this next slide was about antidotes to the different things we were talking about. And I don't want to spend too long, because-- and you guys can go back and look at it. But for defensiveness, one of the antidotes is understanding the link between defensiveness and fear. So oftentimes, when people are being defensive, there is something they're scared of. So is it possible to engage with them and ask an inquiring question about what's really going on? In terms of perfectionism I feel like, in the workplace, developing a culture of appreciation can be useful. And that's also in the classroom. So Fridays, I always do acknowledgments where we give each other shout-outs for different things, and just building in that there is no perfect, but that we're celebrating everything that's happening. I'm going to move forward. I feel we've talked about some of this. But paternalism-- just this one is super important to me-- is including people impacted by the decisions and the decision making. And I try and do that with students also in terms of creating classroom agreements, in terms of-- yeah. I believe students should be on the hiring committee when teachers are being hired, things like that. And for all of these things, I think it's working on it within ourselves, and then naming it when we see it coming up. OK, so arriving at circles, which is-- my favorite place to be is sitting in circle. And I think that circles can be and have the potential to be such spaces of healing and of a feeling of belonging. The first humans to gather in circles were gathered around a fire, because standing in a circle around the fire was the most equitable way to distribute warmth. And then Indigenous cultures all over the globe have used circles as-- or we shouldn't even say used circles. That's a very colonial thought about it-- but have gathered in circles for different purposes, and certainly many Indigenous communities on this North American land. In the 1970s is when restorative justice circles started being used, especially in the so-called criminal justice system, doing a lot of victim-offender restorative work. And then it wasn't a thing until the '90s more that circles started being used in classrooms. And some of you may be familiar with-- restorative justice is a huge term. And restorative implies something is being restored. And circles absolutely can be used for addressing issues of harm that have been caused. But also, they can be a space for building community. And I find that the structure of the circle in the classroom, for me, is one of the most poignant ways of decolonizing what's happening in the classroom. In a circle, there is no hierarchy. Each person is equally important. Each person shares from their experience. Each person is needed. If one person is not there, the circle is incomplete. And that can create an experience of belonging that everyone's in this together. It also-- we get to practice truly attentive listening and authentic sharing, which I think-- as humans, we all long for that. And this system that has created so much suffering, in a way, has taken away from many of us in different ways and in different contexts our feeling of belonging. The circle itself represents its wholeness. And I think we each, in a way, yearn feel our own wholeness and our wholeness and connection with others. And ultimately, that is just the culture in the classroom, and hopefully beyond. So when I started teaching high school-- I don't know how many years ago, 18 years ago or something-- my inclination when I had 25 students was I just had to get us into a circle, because it was the only way I could feel like I could even pay attention to everybody or know what was happening in the room. And in doing that, I could feel how it brought the energy into a more focused place. And then, throughout my practice, the years of working, I've had a chance to see the different potential that circles can hold in the classroom. I start my class-- so this is in the jail. We do an opening circle and a closing circle every day. And doing that, I feel it really invites everybody into the room. So it counters marginalization that so many students have experienced-- certainly, of course, all my students in the jail. But before that, I was working at continuation school. So most of my students, our students, have experienced feeling marginalized in schools and in life. And the circle, to me, is like the most poignant, beautiful antidote for marginalization, because it brings everybody in. If you can't tell, I like talking about that part. I'm going to move forward. Oh, and that's interesting. Time is moving more quickly than I thought. So this piece here-- there's many ways to hold circles. I really have found that doing a little bit of mindfulness or movement at the beginning can help everybody regulate their nervous systems and be able to show up. And this is also just-- I wouldn't say a plug, but in a way-- for incorporating dynamic mindfulness into classrooms. There's an organization called Niroga Institute, which I recommend-- and I put it in the resources-- that teach us about this. And they've done so much research. But we know that trauma impacts many, many of our students. And the world we're living in now is no exception, especially right now with the level of disconnection and anxiety happening. And we know that trauma impacts executive functioning and can interfere with academic learning. But the research also shows that, because of neuroplasticity, we have the ability to rewire and to regain our capacity for self-regulation. So bringing the body in-- and again, ideally, if we were together, I could model these things more fully. But even just the way I started-- and you may have had reactions like, oh, why are we moving our shoulders? It takes some time for students to get used to it. But incorporating a little bit of movement, breath, and attention is basically the definition of dynamic mindfulness. And what that does is it's integrating the mind, our attention, and our emotions with the breath and the body. And it's bringing us into present time. And we know that trauma impacts people's perception of time. The experience of trauma can be that something from the past is-- you feel like it's still happening, even though it's over. And so it's hard to come into the actual present moment. So actually, I just want to pause in the interest of slowing down and embodying this a little bit. And I'm going to invite you to just-- I'm going to show you my hands. But just maybe your hands are on your lap. But as you inhale, you're going to draw your hands into little fists. And as you exhale, releasing the hands and opening them. So inhaling and clenching, and exhale, release. Maybe just do that one more time, and just noticing whatever you notice, and seeing if you can keep your attention on the sensation. So that's an example of a really simple dynamic mindfulness movement. So I like to start my circles with some breathing or dynamic mindfulness and grounding in order to open the space. And from there, we move into sharing. Make sure I shared what I wanted to about that. The research has shown that doing six minutes of dynamic mindfulness-- basically, breath movement and attention. So it could be a short yoga practice, or qigong, or just exercising but with breath. So it's different-- instead of just pumping weights, if you-- it could be, if you're inhaling up and exhaling down, and just paying attention to the feeling. But doing that for six minutes every day greatly impacts executive functioning and mitigates some of the impacts of chronic stress. I had just a few quotes from students that I wanted to share. Could I ask for a volunteer to unmute themselves and read them, since now I realize it doesn't have to be my voice? Anybody? Mary Louise has raised her hand. Great, Mary Louise. OK, the check-in helps us ground ourselves and get to a safe place so we can feel comfortable sharing our feelings and concerns. We are learning basic self-care skills. Do you want me to continue? Sure. Thank you. The circle helps us see we are not alone. It builds camaraderie between students to help lift each other up. It gives me an overwhelming feeling of love for people of all lives and helps me to not judge a book by its cover. Thank you. Yeah, you can go ahead and read the last one, too. The circle was the first time that I felt like, wow, things might actually be all right. Thank you. So I feel that I offer this-- sorry-- just that we spent a long time talking about some of the problems with white-dominant culture and the colonial framework of imposing value. And for me, the circle has been the thing that feels like-- I guess I said it, but just the most poignant anecdote and the place that really make space for people, and that actually the structure of it is countering some of the more paternalistic aspects that can happen in the classroom. And this is-- I'm speaking from a teacher's perspective. So again, from an administrator's perspective, for me, if I were an administrator, I would be wanting to do PDs around this, and teachers sharing ways of holding circles in classrooms, and other structures that also counter marginalization and create a space for equity. I wanted to talk briefly about just some-- I sort of did, about applications, how I like to do a check-in and a check-out in class. But we also do circles to mark important events. So in the jail, when somebody is about to get out, we do a circle for that person. And we all reflect back to them their strengths so that they can resource them that way and take that image with them. For graduations, we do circles. Then I mentioned Friday acknowledgment circles. A circle can also be used when there's been a conflict. And everybody has a chance to voice their experience. And there's a lot of resources out there for holding actual restorative circles. And then virtual circles-- in this time where we're not getting to sit together so often. And I realized, if I had thought the format was different, I could have tried to hold a virtual circle on here. And I've been doing some virtual circles that have felt pretty good. I didn't realize I wasn't as limited by the technology as I thought. But for a virtual circle, I recommend only 12 people. And that could mean doing A and B groups with students. I recommend creating an order so that people know-- and you can even create a visual of names in a circle, so that people know who's going next. And part of that is comforting, too. You don't think you're just going to get called on out of the blue. Also, creating norms about having mics off and cameras on. And then having people bring a talking piece. Actually, I have it sitting here, just because it's grounding to me, the talking piece I use in the jail of these three bears that I got in Taos Pueblo by the man who had made them. And he did a blessing for all the folks who were incarcerated. And we pass it around. And whoever is speaking has their talking piece. But when I've done talking-- a virtual circle with a group of teachers doing PD, I ask people to bring a talking piece. And then they actually share about the meaning of it for them. And it can be a nice way, again, of bringing people's culture and personality both into the space together and getting to know each other in a deeper way. And having something to hold when it's your turn to talk can also feel really grounding. OK, questions. Are questions coming up? Yeah. Thanks, Kelly. So people can feel free to type in the chat. And then I wanted to do a little closing circle, which I'll ask-- yeah, people can unmute. I can call on people. If you raise your hand, Penny can write your name in the chat. So just taking a minute to reflect-- and if you need to, take another breath, and just notice what's coming up for you. And then thinking, what is one understanding that has shifted or deepened for you in this session? What are you taking forward with you? Anna, go ahead. And you can unmute yourself. Well, I actually wanted to-- I was going to wait till the end, because I wanted to congratulate you, obviously, for such a beautiful presentation, but also ask if maybe in the future we could have also a presentation about other communities as well, such as the-- I should know the acronym. For example, our-- [AUDIO OUT]. I'm sorry? Go ahead, sorry. I'm sorry. I'm losing my words right now for-- but for example, our students who may be transsexual or about their gender identity. How can we help our students who are in that situation? Or how can we address it? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions. And I would love to learn more about that, and about adult ed as well, and how that incorporates in itself. I totally agree with you. And I'm also starting to learn more about that. And I think I just offered this again because I felt inspired to push myself and share my learning. But I think, if all of us reach out to CAEP and say-- put in your evaluations and say what kinds of things you're looking for next year, or just in general. I feel like, if we can say what we want, hopefully that will happen. And gosh, if there's anybody in this presentation today who feels like they've been really working with understanding gender and gender inequities and how to create more space there, maybe we will be inspired by my-- I sort feel like-- and I appreciate you saying, it's a beautiful presentation. I feel like it's messy. And I feel like that's OK, though. And maybe I could inspire one of you to get up and be messy, too, and share your thinking and your learning in the interest of just creating dialogue. So thank you, Anna. Hilary, go ahead. Can you hear me? Yes. Yes. OK. The one main thing I think that I'm going to be taking away from this is a shift in my own thinking in how I do goal setting, and creating plans for continuous development within our school, and making sure that we're centering our students and not centering systems that are built on whiteness or just dominant culture, and making sure that we are doing what's right by our students and with our students' involvement instead of just ticking check boxes that were established by other people. Thank you, Hillary. Yeah. And it's 2:18. And I know we have just till 2:30 exactly. If folks would be willing, if more people want to-- Anna-- to unmute yourself. And I was going to say, if other people want to type in the chat at the same time, just takeaways, that would be really helpful. Anna, go ahead. Hi. Thank you so much for doing this presentation. I looked at all the presentations throughout the week. And this was one of the ones that I was looking forward. And it's just more of that feeling of belonging that is just so huge and that-- For myself, there's times that I feel I completely belong in a setting, or a group, or at work. And then there's other times that it's just constantly like, what is happening, that I just feel like I just want to cry-- like, get me out of here. And I appreciate you being vulnerable and saying, no, I'm not looking. But at the same time, I'm just going to throw it out there. And it just pushes us, including me, to say, it's OK, when I'm presenting. It's OK if I'm in a group of people, so that we can push ourselves to the next level, because that's what it's going to take. It's going to take people to role model situations that feel so uncomfortable. And for me lately, that's exactly what I've been doing when I'm helping adult students transition to the college. And at the college, at times it feels like it's a different universe. And by the systems that we have in place, it doesn't feel friendly for an immigrant, for someone that has been disconnected from education for many years. And so I've been pushing the system. And there's moments that I feel so alone. But at times, I just tell myself, OK, if I was to die tomorrow, at least I pushed myself to the next level of pushing the systems. And I don't have a lot of opportunities to be learning from others this type of topic. And so I appreciate you for being vulnerable, for throwing it out there, for the amazing work that you're doing. I can almost feel sitting next to you and being in those circles, and feeling that connectedness of belonging. Thank you. Thank you so much, Anna. You are so articulate. And I just-- yeah. I could really-- I could feel your heart. And I also appreciate your vulnerability in talking about your experience in some of those workplaces. Yeah, I have the prayer that, more and more, there can be more of us to create belonging amongst each other and can push that into the spaces that haven't been really creating that and allowing that. Penny, will the chat be saved, and I can read it later? Yes, you can. Actually, can save it directly right now. In the chat box itself, to the right of the tab where it says-- OK, I don't want to spend the time on it. OK. But that's cool. Thank you. Yes. Yeah. And thank you. And I just-- I'm reading the things people are writing. Carmen, go ahead. Yeah, thank you. Just wanted to say, great presentation. As somebody who has been doing this work for many, many years and still currently teaching at UC Berkeley a lot of this stuff, it's always refreshing to hear it. And as you said, we're lifelong learners. So even though I'm a very seasoned person in this material, there's always something that I take away from every presentation. And I really appreciated the grounding that you did within this presentation. And I just wanted to share also, with everybody, that this conversation about this work within adult education has been going on for quite a few years within our office already. And I think the biggest challenge, as you all know being part of such a large state, is really thinking about strategies to implement it statewide. And so I just wanted everybody to know that this conversation is going on. And it's extremely encouraging and refreshing to see the participation in this presentation, because it reaffirms the need for leadership at the state level, as well to further push and encourage this work at the local level. And so I will be bringing it back to Carolyn and others, and hopefully push this conversation even further than it has been already, because it's definitely-- I am a believer of-- I know we talked about urgency, right? But I think there is always cases where urgency is needed. And I think, in this particular case, it is long overdue. And the urgency is there. I think the times require it and need it. Not to say that it's any different than before, but I think with everything that is going on nationally and internationally, it is of utmost importance to really push the conversation forward, both again at the state and local level, and then also within that, even within CDE as an institutional. As a statewide institution, Superintendent Thurmond is also having those conversations about implementing this type of training internally within the agency. So again, it's very refreshing to see the participation and to know that the field is hungry for having this conversation and continue this work forward. And so again, thank you for a great presentation, and to you as well. And hopefully, we'll stay in touch for future opportunities to maybe possibly collaborate. Thank you so much, Carmen. I felt a lot when you were speaking. And I'm so glad you were here and able to share that as someone who's coming with a more macro perspective about what's actually going on in the state. And I absolutely will reach out to you. And I also feel really moved just by the participation, and all the folks in this room together, and just all the perspectives that were shared. It feels very rich to me. I'm leaving feeling inspired to continue and to continue to collaborate, and keep learning, and find ways that we can push and leverage. And it's really affirming to feel like, OK, I did something to push myself, and look how it's met. There is a ripeness here. And I like being in the classroom. I'm not as much in policy. But just being a teacher and speaking from my perspective, the fact that that can ripple out, it just-- I'm feeling very affirmed. And it is feeling like a privilege that I get to engage with all of you in this conversation. So thank you so much. I want to read this quote to close, from Angel Kyodo Williams, who I recommend checking out, if you haven't. So many wise people in the world today speaking truth. "Without inner change, there can be no outer change. Without collective change, no change matters." And with that, again, just maybe we'll take a breath together-- in and out, noticing what you feel in your body, and in your heart, and the thoughts in your mind, and just really feeling a lot of gratitude for all of you. Before we sign all the way off, I fit some of my recommended reading onto one slide. There's a lot there. But My Grandmother's Hands, Racialized Trauma and the Pathway to Mending our Hearts and Bodies, by Resmaa Menakem-- if you haven't, that's my number-one recommendation. So I don't need to read it to you, because it's available. And I did my due diligence and have-- yeah. So that's me. That's my email. Feel free to reach out to me. I also wanted to say that all of the artwork in this presentation is from my students, who gave me permission to use it. But it doesn't have their actual names, for confidentiality purposes, but so much talent behind bars in this country. And also, in my classroom having the art up, I feel, is another beautiful way of creating belonging. And I just wanted to bring that forward into the presentation to you, and my references, which are there. So it's 2:28. So we're going to sign off. Thank you again, all, so much. I hope that whatever seeds we've planted-- and really, the seed's already planted-- but whatever has been inspired today, that just we get to carry it forward together. Thank you. Thank you, Kita. It's a great session. Thank you, everyone, for attending. And Kita, if you'd take a moment and go ahead and download the chats for your records before I close. Otherwise, you'll have to talk with CAEP about getting a copy of them, because it'll be on the system. I got it. The Save Chat button. Super. Awesome. All right, everyone, it is the end of the conference. When I close the session, please remember to fill out the evaluation. And I hope all of you have a wonderful rest of your evening. And we'll see you again online sometime soon. Thank you, all, for attending today. And thank you, Penny, for all the tech support. You're very welcome. Have a great day, everyone. Ending the meeting now.